Catholic Storytelling and the Art of Co-Creation
January 5, 2026
What if audiences don’t just consume stories, they finish them? We dive into that idea with a wide-ranging conversation across Catholic imagination, indie cinema, saints’ lives, and the nuts and bolts of making marketing that people actually want to share. Starting with parables and tradition, we explore how stories invite each of us to bring our history, hopes, and habits to the work, transforming it in the process. That sacramental lens, seeing outward signs that reveal inward grace, becomes a practical tool for watching movies, reading difficult texts, and crafting content with integrity.
We take Tolkien and Flannery O’Connor as case studies in contrast. One fosters wonder and moral clarity; the other confronts sin and shock to reveal mercy. Both reward active participation. We unpack why an indie film like Wildcat, with layered performances and nonstandard form, can challenge expectations yet offer richer meaning, while a gorgeous production can still fail if its story collapses. The conversation then swings to documentary ethics: editing is always authorship, and “truth” needs context. Recognizing the filmmaker’s hand helps viewers engage critically without losing the human core of the subject.
Finally, we connect these ideas to modern marketing. Today’s platforms are built for co-creation, remixes, duets, stitches, and reactions. We share practical tactics that 10x engagement: short loops with a setup and payoff, prompts that invite replies, and topics sourced from real searches so content meets felt needs. The goal isn’t to game an algorithm; it’s to respect people as partners who make meaning with you. Come for the theology of story, stay for the creative playbook you can use on your next post, film, or campaign. If this resonates, follow the show, leave a review, and share it with a friend who loves stories as much as you do.
Reach out if you need help with consistent, story-driven video marketing for your brand, agency, business, association, or nonprofit.
FREE KICKSTART GUIDE: https://letsbackflip.com/guide/
Topics in This Episode
- (0:00) Setting The Stage: Method To Madness
- (0:29)Catholic Imagination And Co-Creation
- (2:52) Parables, Tradition, And New Stories
- (6:45) Saints In The Middle Of Their Stories
- (15:06) A Sacramental Lens For Art
- (18:56) Wildcat And Indie Storytelling
- (25:41) When Beauty Fails Story: Wheel Of Time
- (30:59) Documentary Truth And Manipulation
- (39:12) Co-Creation In Modern Marketing
- (39:52) Designing Content For Interaction
- (39:56) Researching Questions People Ask
Transcript
Ryan Freng:
Welcome to the Backflip Effect, the podcast that proves there’s a method to the marketing madness. Specifically, a method that involves clever video strategy and a dash of creative mischief. Now don’t be fooled by bland ideas or big budget fluff. Instead, we tackle real client questions and share how we’ve transformed businesses with strategies that actually work. Grab your headphones and join us as we explore the nitty-gritty of turning everyday marketing woes into story-driven success. Let’s get started. Welcome to our new podcast, All the Drinks. Uh, I have them. I have them all. Um, and that’s just how we’re gonna start. Okay, so you don’t know, you’ve seen some of the content that we’ve talked about before, you don’t know what we’re gonna talk about. And then I just had an idea because I’m a part of this book club and we’re helping present, and it’s about Catholic imagination and reading um fantasy in order to understand mystery and wonder and things like that, and even story as a reflection of the gospel, right? Um now I want to pivot that a little bit and think about movies and cinema and the idea that we’re co-creators in art. So the idea that somebody might put something to page, might make a movie, but then once they’ve done that, their work in constructing that art is just about done. Then you, as the viewer, the reader, uh, you’re engaging in that art, but you’re creating something new because you’re bringing your own perspective, your life, your hopes and dreams and joys and all of that, and all your brokenness. And when you read that, it affects me in a different way than it’s gonna affect you. And in that, you’re co-creating this new art. And, you know, we think about approaching everything with like a sacramental worldview, like, how does this show sacrament being an inward sign of an outward grace given by God? But like just to have that perspective of how can this reveal grace or help me to, you know, love God or grow in my faith more, even if it’s a bad movie, right? Or a bad book. And then eventually I think maybe we can get to kind of marketing and thinking about marketing and how somebody who watches content or reads your content is a co-creator in that content that you’re putting out there. So I that that’s a lot. I’m hitting you with a fire hose.
John Shoemaker:
Okay, yeah. So there were a lot more layers to that than I was thinking. Even when you just started talking, so I had a few ideas initially, and and then I was like, okay, I gotta hold on to these ideas because we went more layers further away from the than that. Um, I don’t know where to start exactly, other than to say uh I can’t, I don’t know if I can exist in the abstract realm. I’ll just bring it into some. All right, so in the world of filmmaking and Catholic filmmaking, Catholic media making, there are there’s probably more than two schools of thought, but there are tend to be competing schools of thought sometimes where there are people who are a little bit more uh they’re a little bit more reserved, conservative, uh trying to play it safe, and you know, um would say that that we should be telling uh not veering off of uh biblical stories or or the text or the uh catechism or whatever too much, right? Like there was kind of that school of thought, and then there’s the school of thought of like arguing that the only stories that we should have are biblical? Yeah, I don’t think I don’t know that just just maybe that they feel more comfortable like uh evangelizing uh through that through that realm or whatever. Um I don’t know, maybe maybe I’m overstating that, but uh, this is where my head was going with this. So there are people creating great things right now, um telling stories within with you know from scripture. Um and maybe it’s not a Catholic worldview. I don’t know. And I the there well, we might have to skip through that. I don’t know. I don’t know.
Ryan Freng:
Can I jump on that real quick?
John Shoemaker:
Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Freng:
Maybe expand in a way that you’re intending.
John Shoemaker:
Yeah.
Ryan Freng:
So we did hear a comment last night of like there there are people who say like you shouldn’t tell versions of the gospel stories or allegories about the gospel because it’s blasphemous. Okay, right. Sure. Now, technically I think that’s not true, right? But that is a perspective of like, why do we need these extra stories when we when we just have these really amazing biblical stories?
John Shoemaker:
So I think that’s kind of the direction that my thought was going a little bit, that there is that type of view, yeah, and there are times when you know, I’ve second guess like been like, well, you know, I don’t think that’s true, but how is that? Why is that anyway? When you were talking before, it just made me realize like, well, Jesus told stories 100%. You know, so like that’s that’s like the perfect example of you know, he would tell he’d tell the disciples, like at times, I I’m not gonna get my references perfect here. There are times when he would say, All right, I’ll explain this to you clearly, you know, just plainly, um, because I’ve been speaking in parables, but mostly he was speaking in parables. Yeah, so he’d be teaching a lesson.
Ryan Freng:
And he’d only clarify because they would be like, What does that mean, Lord? Yeah. And he’s like, You hypocrites, come on, why do I have to explain it?
John Shoemaker:
So you’d be teaching some sort of lesson, and then he would say, Okay, once there was this man and he had two sons, and right, you know, and he would like tell this story, and then he would leave it there for a lot of the people. And a lot of the people, like the lesson that they got was about finished up right there. I don’t know how much they heard later, you know, from him. You know, he again he explained to his disciples more of those stuff plainly, but maybe some of those people were like, this was the story they got, and this was the story they passed down. And so I’m just trying to tie that to your idea from before. Like, so then any additional uh revelations and ideas and whatever that they got from that were that were from them participating in that and like being co-creators in that. They tell that story again, and then even you know, we could even imagine the Asian audiences doing what we did today, right, or what we do today, kind of like diving into it with the, you know, they tell that story, and then they’re like, so what do we think it means? And right, you know, that kind of thing.
Ryan Freng:
Well, and even to that point, the Bible that we have today is not all of the teaching, right? The tradition, uh, the big big T tradition. Um, there’s even several places in Paul’s uh letters that he’s like, trust in the tradition that we have given to you, right? Not trust in this letter that I’ve written to you, but trust in the tradition. So there’s there’s tradition and other stories that aren’t a part of the Bible. So I think that’s a that’s a pretty direct response to the you know idea that we can’t have other stories or extra biblical stories that point back to the gospel in some way. Um, but now that we’ve we’ve kind of achieved that, um the idea that we do have these other stories and even like personal evangelization, like we see when you’re having a conversation with somebody, like give them an anecdote in your own life. You know, one time when you had trouble and maybe you just sat down in adoration, or maybe it wasn’t even adoration, you’re just at home and you sit in your easy chair and you have a moment of silence, and when you retreat into your heart, you find the Lord is there, you know, it was always there, and you just had to find some quiet in order to hear. That’s a story, right? That’s that’s that’s a story you can tell someone um that can help, you know, uh function in a sacramental way.
John Shoemaker:
Well, I was trying to remember what I had just heard just recently, someone talking about um what was it? It was probably a podcast or something, and they were they were talking about the value of the challenges that we all go through, you know, that that you then have a lot to bring, a lot of perspective and a lot of value to bring to other people as you like share, you know, what that was like, what you went through, how you got through it, all of that.
Ryan Freng:
Well, that I mean that’s the the film that we want to make, right? Yeah like radical faith. Yeah. Like these inspirational examples of faith that people have. I mean, we have the stories of the saints, and that’s I think that’s that’s what they are. And maybe that’s we’re like developing this film contact or context right now, but like maybe that’s what it is. It’s like modern day saints, right? Um, don’t tell anyone that that’s that’s the way we’re going, but it’s examples of radical faith that we’re seeing in those around us.
John Shoemaker:
Yeah.
Ryan Freng:
Story.
John Shoemaker:
And at some point, like all the all the okay, I’ll use the capitals, you know, all the capital S saints, uh at some point they were living, they were in the midst of living their lives, which looked a lot like ours, you know. To some extent, you know, some of them got holier, you know, they were much holier by the end of their life, but maybe not in the middle, like a lot of the saints, their stories.
Ryan Freng:
I mean, St. Augustine has his whole confessions.
John Shoemaker:
Yeah, yeah. So there are a lot of them are messy in the middle. So then that’s an interesting thought. Um, not necessarily part of this story, but just like a thought to uh to bring into the creation of the project is like if you could go back and like be in speak to some saying or hear from them or share stories or share life with them in the middle of their lives, what would that have looked like? Would it have been would it have looked like you know what we think of the saint being later? Or would it just be like, oh yeah, this is a person and they’re sharing their experience and their I mean on this path?
Ryan Freng:
It depends on the saint, right? Like, you know, St. Maria Gretti, like our parishes of St. Maria Grady, she she was assaulted and then died, but forgave her attacker before she died, and that’s you know, uh great mercy. Um and she certainly lived a pious life and a faith, you know, oriented life. But was she you know transforming the lives of those around her in the same way? I’m trying to think, um, like Saint Monica. Like Saint Monica, who’s Augustine’s mother, um everyone just knew her as like a um a daughter of the church, like someone who loved Jesus and was was even more than that, just like a joy to be around, and people saw that joy throughout her entire life, right? So I think it it also kind of depends on the saint, because like then Augustine, he was a crazy person, like an intellectual who then got, yeah, what was it, the um Manichaeans, I think, got involved with them and they were crazy, like even to the point where they wouldn’t eat uh like they wouldn’t pick food, like it had to fall off a tree for them to eat it. And the elders would get up and get the first fruits, and then the rest of them would get the it was like so weird. Um, but then eventually, right, he became um like one of the doctors of the church and specifically related to like grace, like his his understanding of grace, and I think that directly came from his mother, but his life was insane, his life was crazy, and we have his stories. Yeah, sorry, you’re gonna survive. This is this podcast is called All the Drinks. Yeah, all well, this is just water, but I’m choking out straight vodka. Uh we gotta smoke more in these podcasts. That’s what guys, middle-aged men who have podcasts do.
John Shoemaker:
They just smoke and yeah, um, yeah, they definitely they’re not not everyone is the same, which is like uh the most obvious statement ever. Uh, I was reading, I it was suggested to me to look into Saint Anthony of the Desert. Um not the St. Anthony that we you know ask to help find our lost stuff. Yeah um so my wife Manda has on her water bottle this sticker that says Num Chapi, which it means now I begin. And and I’m aware of that from the prayer uh St. Homie Jose Maria Escriva wrote, prayer to the Holy Spirit. Uh in the middle of it, he uses that phrase, you know, now I begin. Like, um uh what is it? You know, I can’t remember the line right before it, you know, but it was like now I begin lest there be no tomorrow for me. The Jose Maria, yeah, yeah. Um, but then uh actually Father Brian Dooley, I saw, um, was saying, he’s like, oh, actually that that uh phrase dates even further back to St. Anthony of the Desert, who yeah, I mean he he definitely had a wild uh you know monastic like uh hermit sort of life, like went out into the desert, um like didn’t say anything, didn’t speak to people for like a lot of years. Uh yeah, so I don’t know. I I don’t know a lot about I just like read it quickly, um, but clearly he yeah, his life was a lot a lot different, very unique. Um anyway, point being it’s interesting to hear stories and hear testimonies of of people in our lives now. It’s like anyone and everyone could be well on their way to sainthood, we’re all you know, and like it’s uh yeah, I don’t know. I mean it’s cool to engage in the story now, thinking of like or I’m just thinking of that now, like, yeah, where will this end up? Where you know, how will this be a part of the whole picture later on when all said and done?
Ryan Freng:
And so that that sacramental worldview, right? So uh sacrament being the outward sign of an inward grace, um co-creation of story. So sacraments, we don’t create, we don’t co-create in that. That’s that’s given by God. Um but creation, we are co-creators in creation, like this conversation. We are creating, we can create art, we can build things, um you know, build a house, build uh, I don’t know why I’m now listing things that you can build, name things that you can build. Uh Lego, those are the only two things you could build, houses and Legos. But we were co-creators in in that, but then back to art and co-creators in cinema and then in marketing. So it was interesting because in the context of the book club, we’re reading The Hobbit and then Flannery O’Connor. So uh two Christian authors, uh Tolkien and um Flannery O’Connor, who her writing style or her genre would be Southern Gothic, which is like stories of murder, you know, um, in a depressing way. But there’s moments of grace and moments of hope in there. Um Tolkien, obviously, uh I can’t remember genre what they it’s not really epic fantasy per se, but it’s certainly fantasy, and maybe it’s like juvenile fantasy because the Hobbit was written for his son. Yeah. But there’s this idea that um, and C.S. Lewis said this there’s no book, um, there’s no book reading at 10 that’s not worth reading again at 50. Essentially, I think I’m paraphrasing in a bad way, but it’s uh it’s like anything that’s valuable to read at that age is gonna be valuable as an adult. And it made me think about like the sneeches in Dr. Seuss, like the starbellied snitches. Um, and for those who don’t know the star-bellied snitches, there’s these creatures’ sneches, some have stars on their bellies, others don’t. And then the crazy businessman comes to town with his star on machine and can give stars to those who don’t have them. And then the original ones with stars don’t want stars on their bellies, so then he turn changes it and it can take stars off, and then they get all mixed up, and then they realize that they have value regardless of whether they have stars or not, and they just want to be included, so they want to be a community together. I love that story to this day, and it’s you know, Dr. Seuss intended for kids. Um, but having that sacramental lens, even with stuff that we don’t like. So, like, did you see the movie Wildcat? Yes. Okay, so we’re gonna watch that at the end of it. I haven’t seen it yet, yeah. Um, but I’ve also I’m aware of it, you know, and it weaves the story of her life, uh Flannery Roconnor, plus one of the stories she’s writing, right? A few of them or a few of the stories. Um, and I think we’re gonna read one or two of the stories that are in the movie. Yeah. And so, you know, just that just sounds like a very odd movie out of the gate. And I’m sure, like stylistically, a lot of people aren’t gonna, you know, like it. And so last night, my encouragement was like, hey, have a sacramental worldview and everything, but then when you’re consuming content, and especially like this movie that we’re gonna watch and these books that we’re gonna read, find that, find those elements of grace and those moments of hope and mercy that can change you, that can move you in a positive way.
John Shoemaker:
I I think as a I don’t want to overstate it because like expectations can make things hard to take, right? You know, like if you come in with certain expectations, as a filmmaker and creator, I think you’ll enjoy it a lot. Um, it’s it’s not an easily accessible Hollywood movie for a lot of people. What do you mean by that? Uh it I mean the format is a little different, it’s it plays out more like an indie kind of film. Sure. Um, there are things that are interesting and unique, and you’re like, uh, this is really cool from a filmmaking perspective, from like an editing perspective, and from like acting and stuff like that. I I don’t think it’s any secret because if you watch the story, uh well, I think it’s a good story too. I think I think it was well done. I just know that it’s like not everyone will enjoy it because it’s just not just like your standard format kind of movie, right? Right. Um and it plays a little bit more with like the the mode of mu movie making, like, and again, this is not a spoiler because I’m pretty sure this would be in the teasers too. Like the the actress who plays uh Flannery O’Connor in the movie is also playing the roles of the characters from the Stories that are being portrayed in the movie. Yeah. And you know, that’s cool. And it’s like so it’s it’s can be weird. It’s got lupus. Yeah, it can be weird and it can be confusing for somebody who’s looking for a standard format, sure, you know, three-act Hollywood movie. Um, but it’s really fun, just knowing the like, oh wow, that that’s a lot of breadth, you know, for that actress to play through this whole movie. And then the way that they wrote, there’s like undertones, and you’re like, oh, that’s interesting. And it even adds another layer of intrigue that clearly she wrote this story. Assuming that this the movie is telling the story of her relationship with her mom in the way that it was. Okay, so she wrote this story, and then when you see her acting and then her mom acting, the mom character acting in a different role.
Ryan Freng:
I’m loving it already.
John Shoemaker:
I’m loving it so much. Then you’re like, that’s another layer of meaning. Right. That’s like, oh, it’s her story she wrote, but then when you see them portrayed, you’re like, oh yeah, that’s a what an interesting dynamic, knowing that she has this dynamic with her mom in the real world. Yeah. And now we’re seeing the same two actresses. Yeah, it’s just kind of a fun. Yeah. There’s some really cool stuff there.
Ryan Freng:
Well, and I I’m excited to watch, so I’m gonna watch it sometime soon before we watch it at the book club. But, you know, something should be able to stand on its own without the uh, you know, excellence of the sum of its pieces, I think. Um, so like Wheel of Time is a good example, uh, which is one of my favorite books and was adapted into a series on Amazon. It’s an epic fantasy. Um, the farm boy becomes the dragon reborn or is the dragon reborn and has a larger-than-life destiny, larger than you know, empire destiny. Uh, the showrunner who took the book said, I’m not making this for fans of the book, which I was just like, okay, sure, like whatever. And then he didn’t make it for fans of the book. Um, and the cinematography, the acting, the costuming, the music, the sets, gorgeous. It’s probably the one of the best productions I’ve ever seen, like beyond, I don’t know, Avatar or Marvel or uh, I don’t know, think think art or whatever. And the acting is is pretty good. Um, the story is just terrible. Like it can’t even stand on its own. I keep trying to be like, okay, it’s not the book that I love, it’s this other story, and it doesn’t work. Right. So I’m interested with like Wildcat. So from that, actually, from the Wheel of Time, I was like, wow, this beautiful artistry I can take from it. Like those are true good and beautiful. They’re completely ruining the story, and you know, there’s a lot of uh uh anger because of that, but I can appreciate the other things that are really awesome and you know, be better because of that. Wildcat, I’m really interested too. Uh, especially for there’s a lot of old people in this book group, um, and they might have some experience with Flannery O’Connor. I don’t know. One of the feedback was like with the Hobbit, they’re like, isn’t that a kid’s book? Like, oh, buckle up, like, we’re gonna read Hobbit and then we’re gonna read Flannery O’Connor, which is like people are getting murdered.
John Shoemaker:
Yeah.
Ryan Freng:
Like in one of the stories, um, I haven’t read it, uh, I don’t know which one it is. This is real great content. But there’s a family who essentially runs into this serial killer, and the serial killer is like killing the family, taking a family member out and killing them, and then another one, and another one, another one, finally get to the last one, and um there’s a moment of grace there, and then I think the the last person gets killed. Very dire circumstances and you know, scary and horrific. Um very different kind of book. And I guess I don’t know if that’s one of the stories in the movie, but not that people have to seek out things that they don’t like, but I think it’s important again to have that worldview, that sacramental worldview, so you you can view that movie so that these those people and myself can view this movie and have a positive takeaway from it and not just like, oh, that was weird and I hated it, and you know, that was not a good use of my time.
John Shoemaker:
Yeah, there I again we could probably we could probably talk about the maybe we’ll come back and talk about the movie after you’ve seen the movie. Yeah. Um, we could talk about it for a while. Uh I I’m not even sure if I’ve read a full book of hers. I’ve probably read some stuff and I’m vaguely aware, and then my knowledge of hers from what my wife told me about, and then watching the movie. Um it is it is fun and it’s cool to see like they kind of make you know her reaction against that, like, you know, like let’s keep everything like lighthearted and proper, and you know, like we’re we’re church-going people and whatever, and she’s kind of like, you know, in in the her real life story uh part of the movie, it’s clear that she’s like going up against that, just like, yeah, but that’s not the experience of life, you know, right? And that’s kind of like where her writing comes out of, you know.
Ryan Freng:
How do what did Amanda think of the movie? She liked it. Did she? Yeah, because I know she doesn’t like like indie, like Monica, my wife, doesn’t like indie or weird stories or weird story types or anything like that.
John Shoemaker:
Yeah, she she liked it, and it was yeah, I I it Amanda does she does enjoy indie, but it’s just uh when you have the non-Hollywood ending open ended uh open-ended or like not happy, just for the sake of you know being unique or something, maybe that’s what it is. She liked this one because it’s like, well, that’s that’s the story.
Ryan Freng:
Is there a happy ending?
John Shoemaker:
Um, I don’t know. Trying to read. I love that.
Ryan Freng:
I love that it’s hard to answer though, because like it’s also about perspective. Like, I don’t know, like if it’s hopeful, even if somebody dies, like that’s beautiful. Like, um, oh Captain My Captain, what is that? Uh uh Dead Poet Society. Dead Poet Society with um I I I’m alive, like Will Smith, Will Farrell, Williams, Robin Williams, Robin Williams. By the way, this happened. We were at um sushi lunch. Uh, because I had the kids and I was like, we’re gonna do something fun. We’re gonna go with sushi lunch. Sat down, waitress is like, oh, what have you been up to? And we’re like, oh, we saw Superman last night. It was awesome. She’s like, Oh, I love Superman, he’s my favorite, uh, especially Tom Holland. And all my kids and I looked at each other and we’re like, Tom Holland, he he plays Spider-Man. And he’s like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, Andrew Garfield is better. And it’s like, okay, yeah, you’re definitely talking about Spider-Man. And then she’s like, but he was really good, Tom Holland, in Dune. And I was like, Timothy Chalamet? Like, oh my gosh. And then I realized I was like, oh, I have a certain set of skills, yeah. Like in this whole interaction, and all of my kids were also like following the exact course of our conversation, and like, oh they’re like, She thought Tom Holland played Superman. I was like, no, she’s just confused.
John Shoemaker:
Yeah.
Ryan Freng:
I was like, oh my gosh, we are ridiculous in this.
John Shoemaker:
So speaking of, you know, is it a happy ending? Uh that and then okay, two two points, two thoughts here, bringing them together. Uh is it a happy ending and co-creating uh documentary filmmaking is that was always one of my favorite, you know, most fascinating parts of the um documentary classes and things like that that we dove into was like by food, I’m listening. Yeah, by making a documentary, are you observing it or are you creating it? Are you creating the story? Are you observing the person’s life, the story, or are you participating and uh having an effect on it in some way? Um and you know, arguably this is you can study this in film class if you ever want to go study all the film classes, you know, and go that route. Um there were documentarians who were seeking cinema verite, you know, truth cinema, uh, who are trying to not affect things at all, you know, and like standing back or whatever. But again, there was still debate on, you know, you you’ve captured the thing, right, and then you’ve chosen what to show. Right. So still, still, how are you know being the artist in the in the loop, the artist in the machine or whatever, like, you know, the various analogies, uh you’re affecting the story, you’re creating the story, you’re co-creating the story. And then the thing that’s fascinating to me about documentary is like how what’s you know, what’s the ending? Well, it’s not there’s not an ending. I mean, there is there’s an ending to the story that you’re telling right now, but uh the story goes on. And then I I don’t want to go down the tangent, but there’s this amazing documentary called The Amazing Jonathan we’ve talked about that even dives into this even further. Yeah.
Ryan Freng:
That wild crazy story, which is like, are you changing the story by making and this is the one about the documentarian is is like following the magician? Yes, and what is it? Like he’s like, Are you real are you well?
John Shoemaker:
It’s like question the question is whether the the the magician is like dying. Oh documentary documenting the story, but then there’s like other film crews showing up, and he’s like, Wait, you’re hiring other people too? And yeah, uh, and then at some point there’s an amazing scene where Jonathan is challenging the filmmaker, saying, like, kind of like, am I disappointing you that like I, you know, are you waiting for me to die so that you have this nice like ending to wrap up? Like, what what if I don’t die? Because the filmmaker, spoilers, is like wondering whether Jonathan actually is sick or if he’s like yeah, created the story to like get attention. Yeah, but then he’s grappling, the filmmaker’s grappling with his own, like what story do I want? Like, you know, yeah, it would be put a nice bow on the thing if I document the end of his journey, but that’s tragic, and like what do I care about the person actually? And right anyway, well just fascinating to me doing documentary and working with people and hearing their butt your point of like cinema verite.
Ryan Freng:
Like, I I I like I don’t think Cinema Verite plays, like, I don’t think anybody likes Cinema Verte because like life is hard. Yeah, um, and we don’t want to just see the boring parts of it, right? We want to see the exceptional parts of it. So, like uh a photo album doesn’t show you the the the valleys in between the peaks, right? You just see all the peaks. Well, and that’s what we want out of our movies. We want to see the exciting details, the things that move the story. Cinema verite, like before getting to this conversation, there was 45 minutes of Luke setting stuff up and us testing some stuff, and like a little bit of that might be interesting for a very small audience, but most of that will not play for most people, right? The cinema verite, the the natural life of it. But I do like some of that the cinema verite sense of like letting something breathe, yeah, or like living in that reality for a little bit. But then as a filmmaker, yeah, I think even documentarian, you you’re you’re a storyteller, you’re bringing something together, you’re you’re creating something artificial that wasn’t there before, and you’re trying to be genuine to your perspective and and the story that you want to tell. And hopefully that resonates. And you know, you’re not throwing somebody under the bus by telling a story counter to what they thought they were getting into.
John Shoemaker:
Yeah. Uh there’s another thing I was hearing recently about. See, these are all quick things that I like skim through and I like read some comment, and I’m like, oh, that’s cool, and then it’s hard to like retain them later. Um, because they’re not like it’s not like I read a whole book on this topic. I like saw somebody comment about it. Uh, talking about documentary and how it’s it can be one of the most dangerous forms of media and entertainment. Because it’s like fake truth, right? Because people forget that there is an opinion, there is an angle and perspective that the filmmaker has, but it plays out like it’s it is real, it’s a real person, and you’re hearing real things and seeing real sound bites, but audiences can easily forget that as a filmmaker, like I or you, you know, we’ve chosen what order to put things in and what clips to include and what to what to exclude and whatever.
Ryan Freng:
In order to make people feel an emotion and and have a story that is impactful. Because yeah, again, the co-creation in the story, right? So maybe going a little further into marketing, and I hadn’t thought of that until I was like, oh, this would be fun to talk about, but just reflecting on creating marketing that engages and interacts with somebody in that co-creative way, I think poses questions to them that uh are relevant to their life. Um and to some degree, it can be somewhat pain by numbers, but there’s also discovery of what it is, because like there’ll be content out there for certain niches and certain businesses that is like, hey, just model your content like this, like just do something like this and it engages. And I did that for one of my fitness ones, and it was just it was like lifting video plus um yeah, this text for the first screen and text for the second screen in an eight-second clip. It was like, here’s the science of it. And I was reflecting on it and I was like, why does that work? I was like, well, tech technologically, it’s because they gotta watch it a few times to read it. So it’s kind of like gaming the system. But the other thing is this kind of joke that you are actually interacting with the person who’s consuming it. So the first part is the setup, and the second part is the punchline, which is really fun and it encourages sharing and interaction. So it doesn’t work just by itself, but in the format for Instagram reels or YouTube reels, it connects and engages and then creates something new with that person who either they relate to it or it’s very similar and then they share it from there. And yeah, that was like a post that just got like 10x views because I followed kind of that format. It’s like this will engage, which is really interesting.
John Shoemaker:
Well, and that’s something that I don’t know. I maybe we talk about it, maybe we haven’t talked about it exactly. That’s a unique thing in like I don’t know, sound I’ll sound cliche, like in the modern era, you know, like I ever have experienced not in the modern era. But like we are all creating a lot more than people may have ever before, you know, like oh yeah, right. So like you you would see the marketing. Yeah, let’s go way back, let’s go, you know, past even our childhoods in the 80s and whatever, but like go way back, and you there’s posters up and there’s billboards up and things. Uh people see that, but there’s no there’s no sharing, resharing, yeah, right? Like you’re just consuming it. Maybe you tell somebody that you saw a thing, but now like everybody can like you can just share that post if you think something’s funny or unique or engaging or whatever. You can share it, and then not to mention like memes, and you know, just like the adding, you know, creation on top of other things, right? Um, way more than than in the past. Like so, people definitely are additive, yeah, adding more, creating.
Ryan Freng:
And that’s yeah, and that’s that’s like very specific co-create co-creation in the art, which you can even tell it not to. Like, people can’t remix this, um, which is like click it and then I’m gonna react to it, which is sometimes inane, but for whatever reason fascinating. And and there’s something there’s something in creation. Oh man, by the way, something in the overt creation, short tangent.
John Shoemaker:
I cannot stand. I I’m maybe I’m old, maybe I don’t like the like you’re down in the corner, and the there’s another video, and it’s just you like looking at it or laughing. Like, yeah, I hate that. I don’t know. You have to practice you have to practice more. I just I’m like, yeah, I’m not I don’t mean you, I mean yeah, you plural the royal you mean all of you. Yeah, yeah, all of you. I I’m just like I mean, maybe some of the ones are celebrities and people know them and they want to for me, most of them are like I just don’t know who they are. You don’t want the ones I hate, and I just don’t it’s the person laughing when it’s just going on and they’re like yeah.
Ryan Freng:
Like I just it that looks dumb to me. Yeah. Um otherwise, there’s there’s usually a funny contrast that I think is kind of funny, or the people that I follow they’ll watch something for like 10 seconds and then give you their opinion. They’re like, this is great, and that’s why.
John Shoemaker:
Okay, I’m good with that. Yeah, so I’m talking about a specific format of just like you’ll have to share them next time you have it. Just like yeah, I like I’m trying to look the video that you shared. I don’t like you’re in the way.
Ryan Freng:
Yeah, you’re you’re dumbfaced. Yeah, that’s super interesting. Co-creation in marketing. So, I mean, it it like as a strategy, it behooves us to think of that content that is going to be more interactive, more engaging, that begs certain questions, right? And I think that’s why even for these podcast topics, we really try to look about like look up what are people thinking. There’s a great site, answer the public. It’s like, here’s what people are searching for. Um, what can we talk about that we have experience in that can help others out there, right? Um, so that it can be additive, so that they can take it and make something more from it. So yeah, I don’t know. Just sacramental worldview, just have that lens, have that positive lens. So even if you watch it, it was funny. My my wife even was like, Game of Thrones last night, and she’s like, Yeah, don’t watch it. It’s got a lot of inappropriateness, but here’s some goodness that is in the story. And I was like, Wow, that was bold in front of this group. This group is probably like uh some of them might even be like, I’m gonna send a letter because they said you know, there’s good stories. Yeah, exactly. But that was that was bold, and everyone else in this group is so smart, which is cool. And I was just like, and I’m the movie. Movie guy. Voice is kind of fun, so yeah. I don’t know. Any other thoughts?
John Shoemaker:
No, read read more books, kids. Read more. Read the books.
